Promoted Pins vs Facebook Ads with Emilee Vales | 53
This week’s inspiring teacherpreneur journey is with Emilee Vales, a Pinterest Marketing and Ad Strategist. We had such a great convo about how you can finally decide to start running ads for your teacher business, and what’s the best choice if you're struggling to decide between investing in Pinterest ads or Facebook ads.
In this episode, we chat about:
What the main differences are when creating campaigns for each platform
Compare how to get started on each platform
Why it could be beneficial to diversify your paid advertising
About Our Guest
Former teacher turned Pinterest Marketing and Ads Strategist, Emilee thrives off of diving into her clients data and analytics to create personalized strategies that will ultimately turn their traffic into profit! When she's not obsessing over how she can take her clients further with their marketing strategies, or educating her students on how to take their business to the next level with Pinterest, she's chasing around two sweet little girls or spending time with her husband. After feeling called to be at home with her kids and leaving the teaching world, she can finally say she's living the work at home mom life that she thought was only in her dreams.
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Thanks for listening to this week’s Inspiring Story! If you would like to share your story on the podcast head to www.marketscalegrow.com/journey to apply today. We would love for you to join us and can’t wait to hear about your journey as a teacher business owner.
If you’re looking for support running your ads, I would love to help you. Whether you’re looking for a 1:1 strategy session, to build your email list or full ads management it is my mission to empower ambitious teacherpreneurs just like you! Let’s unleash your limitless potential, turn your dreams into reality and have an even bigger impact on the world!
Episode Transcript:
Hey there, I'm Jenzaia and this is Market, Scale, Grow. A podcast created for ambitious teacherpreneurs looking to have a bigger impact on the world, achieve freedom, flexibility, and ultimately make more money with weekly strategy sessions and inspiring stories from fellow teachers just like you, my goal here is to help you create a customized marketing strategy so you can grow your teacher business beyond your wildest dreams.
Okay, so before we jump into the episode, I am super excited to share a brand new freebie with you. These are my targeting ideas for Facebook ads. If you've dabbled in Facebook ads or you've done them and you've tried them, and you're just looking for some fresh inspiration for your audiences, this freebie is for you. I share my top Facebook ad targeting groups for you so that you can have inspiration and find those people that are perfect for what you have to offer. From warm audiences to cool lookalike audiences, to cold interest based audiences. I cover all three in this freebie. Head to marketscalegrow.com/audiences to grab your copy today.
Jenzaia: Today. I am talking with Emilee Vales. She is a Pinterest marketing and ads strategist. I'm super excited for this chat. So welcome, Emilee, how are you? Good. I'm so excited to be here. I just want to say thank you so much for having. Oh, my pleasure. Um, before we dive into the topic at hand, can you just give us a bit of a background of who you are and what you do?
Emilee: Yeah. So as far as my background, I'm actually a former teacher. I taught for three and a half years, uh, before I had my first daughter. And that was ultimately the pivotal moment where I decided that I would not return to the classroom. It was such a hard decision, but it was definitely the best decision for me.
Uh, when we did the math financially, uh, I also was only going to be going back part-time as well, which was really cool that the school was going to allow me to do that, but it just didn't make sense. And then a lot of times daycares require it. To pay for X amount of days. So even if I was going to only utilize three days of daycare, I was going to have to pay for five days and it just started to feel really complicated.
And then quite literally, I was going to almost be a pain to work and it made zero sense. So I ended up staying home and fast forward. I had a friend from college. Tell me about this course where you could basically learn how to start your own business. And I honestly was super intimidated. I had purchased TPT resources, but I had never considered going that route or exploring that when I was in the classroom, I'm honestly super.
And I tell my clients this all the time. I'm super impressed by teachers. Who not only, even if they end up leaving the classroom, but a lot of them, I feel like are still in the classroom or at least started their business when they're in the classroom. And I just don't know how people do that. I didn't, yes.
I didn't even have a baby yet when my first few years of teaching. I feel like I could've never done that. I'm sure I could have people do it obviously, but it felt like it took everything out of me. And I also taught in a rough area. And anyway, so this course though, it honestly was life-changing for me.
And so I started in social media management. I got really burned out quickly. And I felt like I needed to find a different avenue that was going to be more sustainable, that I felt more passionate about, which ultimately led to me, uh, what I like to say, experimenting with the client's account and there's full transparency there, but it was a really great learning experience for me.
We both had that mutual understanding and I think I charged. Like $200 a month for managing her Pinterest account, but I was learning and I felt like it was a good deal that I was getting paid to learn. And so I literally learned by doing, and since then, I've taken a lot of different courses and things, um, in regards to Pinterest, but that's really how I got started with Pinterest.
And that was in. Let's see, I think it was late spring of 2019. So I've been doing Pinterest since then. And that's kind of how I got where I am now. And after doing organic for a time when I was really working on scaling, um, that's when I decided to learn more about Pinterest ads and then added in that more premium service later.
Jenzaia: So because I'm sure people really care. The course you took was Mikayla Quinn's OTO, right?
Emilee: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And it was great. And she's also a former teacher as well. So I know there's and that's not, I mean, she does mention that, but I feel like a lot of teachers just gravitate to her course anyways, trying to find, you know, another avenue or option if they're thinking about leaving the classroom.
Jenzaia: So, but yeah, so. Just like to give people that information in case they, so they're not like hunting around and snooping people are always so curious. Emilee: Yeah, I do have, um, a blog post, uh, gosh, it was from multiple months ago, but it shares more information about that course and uh, even more information about that journey and stuff, but that's a good point yet when I it's, it can be, uh, interesting.
Jenzaia: I want to know more about that. Um, okay. So today we're going to talk a little bit about how to decide. Which platform is right for you to advertise your TPT business. And Emilee has experience in both Pinterest and a little bit of Facebook ads, but then I have more of the Facebook ads and just a little tiny bit of Pinterest.Um, so we're going to kind of chat this through and see which one prevails. Not really that it's like a competition.
Emilee: I love it.
Jenzaia: Yeah. So what are your beginning thoughts on this? And then we have some questions we'll go with.
Emilee: Yeah. So this was a question I would get really quite frequently from people. How do I choose between Facebook ads and Pinterest ads? And now I don't and this is going back probably. At least a year and a half or more ago when I would get that question a lot.
And I don't know if maybe it's just me or maybe I wasn't listening at the time, but I didn't hear as much about people advertising on Instagram. And I feel like that's obviously, um, a very popular thing to do now, but anyways, I wanted to do some research and. Basically inform people when they would book a discovery call with me, because I don't want people to hire me just to hire me.
I want them to feel informed and educated and really feel like they are making the right and the best decision for their business, their unique niche. And so I did learn Facebook ads, but before that, I had just tried to do research and find some very basic ones. Introductory differences between the two platforms.
And I know a few things that I would explain to people when we would get on that discovery call, uh, were those, some of the main differences were how long they would take to optimize which, you know, Pinterest, it takes so much longer than Facebook. And what I would find is that. People had invested in paid advertising before it typically had been Facebook.
And I think that when you're coming from Facebook to Pinterest, it can kind of be a little bit of a slap in the face. So to put it because Pinterest not only does it take a long time organically because it is a search engine, it takes time to index content. It's just. It would be, you know, to expect Pinterest to optimize quickly would be like expecting your blog to be ranking on the first page of Google after you just started it, it's just not going to happen.
And so I would explain that to people that paid advertising on Pinterest in some ways is similar to the organic because it takes longer as well. It's still much faster to get eyeballs on your content to go the paid advertising route on Pinterest, but it still is going to take much longer than Facebook.
So if people were wanting to run, you know, ads for 10, 14 days, I would just tell them, you know, Pinterest is not the place that you want to be advertising on. I really like to see people. Have at least three months that they're comfortable investing in Pinterest, because then that first month you're just totally warming up the Pinterest tag.
So you install that tag on your website. If it's not already installed, warming that up. Figuring out your consideration campaign. So they've changed the name since then. Um, it used to be traffic, but now it's consideration. And so that is what I recommend where people get started. But basically that first month it's good to even break even.
And then those other months, then you, once you can really hone in on your targeting, figure out which keywords are converting, then you can start getting. Two X four X, six X return on your ad spend. So once again, Pinterest is more of the long game. Now I will say in a second, I would love to hear your thoughts as far as Facebook and you are the expert there, but a couple of other things really quickly that I did mention to them is consider if your person is on that platform.
Do you know that your ideal audience is on Pinterest? Um, obviously not as many people are on Pinterest as they're on Facebook. Everybody's pretty much on Facebook. And so with Pinterest, that was something I'd go through now. It was an easy, yes. Obviously, if I was getting on a discovery call with a teacher, I'm more likely than not a Yes. Your audience is going to be on Pinterest, but then another thing I would talk to them about. I was thinking about how people use the platform. And this can be a perk of Pinterest that people are on Facebook. They're scrolling. You are, it's just a different user behavior than on Pinterest, you're usually going there with a problem and you're searching for your solution, which it one might think that that might increase your conversions.
But at the same time, people are fairly cold still on Pinterest, even if they're searching for the solution you're offering, because they go to that platform trying to gather ideas and inspiration and they might not be ready to make a decision yet. So that also, I think, is something that plays into, you know, Deciding if Pinterest is right for you, especially if you are building your email list and really your objective and thinking about what action you want people to take, if you want them to purchase something, Pinterest could be a little tricky, especially if you have like a $997 course, you would never just promote a pin directly.
And not that you would on Facebook, but even I've even seen with. Lower priced products, $47, that it can be challenging on Pinterest and. Partly due to the way that people use the platform and basically the mode that they're in and that they're still very top of the funnel, meaning that they're still trying to think about what they want and gather ideas.
So I am super interested in your take on some of those things I mentioned on the flip side, like I said, I know some about Facebook, but you are definitely the expert there. So, um, you said a couple of things that I was like, that's the exact same for Facebook? Like if the pixel, which is the equivalent to the tag, it's a Pinterest tag.
Jenzaia: Right. Um, so the pixel takes some time to warm up as well. And so if it's a brand new account, um, it, it, it takes that time, usually, depending on how many people. Going there, going to the website. It can take a really long time for it to warm up. Um, so often if we're doing like an evergreen funnel for the first 30 to 60 days, exactly the same as what you said we're expecting, we're hoping to break even.
And we're just collecting data. Like it's a data mine. Phase of like, okay, let's see what's working, what's not working. And where in your entire funnel, we need to update and change and, and get going. Um, and then same thing with the audience of thinking about where your audience is. And I think because Facebook and Instagram ads run together, that it does include like a lot more people are on Facebook and or Instagram than potentially Pinterest.
But with teachers like you said, they're almost all on Pinterest, right? Like that's where we get all of our ideas from. So it is a pretty safe bet that your audience, if its teachers are going to be on Pinterest, I agree with that. So those are the kind of thoughts that I had while you were chatting about it. Yeah.
So there's actually quite a few similarities and I think that's hard. I've gotten on a lot of calls where people just want to do ads for a month and see how it goes in. It's definitely not the best approach to paid advertising. Definitely. I recommend, and I don't have requirements as, and I'm curious if you do, as far as retainers and you know, you have to do this for 90 days, but at the same time, I don't want to steer somebody wrong and.
If I feel like it's just going to take some time to figure out some of those things. And if they really want to build that up and hone, like I said, hone in on their targeting and really see a good return on their ad spend. It's definitely going to take some time. So that's interesting though, that you.
Were, you know, that you see the same thing on Facebook? So I, um, so for me, I have a 30 day package that I work with people for 30 days, and most of the time we're running traffic to their email list to grow their, to, or to their lead magnet, to grow their email. Um, because that one is a little bit easier than if there's a sale involved and the conversion and all of those different pieces.
It's a really good way to warm up that pixel get some data in there and, and that piece. So I do that and it's a 30 day package, but then for my monthly retainer clients, I don't, I've never held anyone to the 90 days, but I do make it clear. It is preferable if we work together for 90 days, because they can take that time.
And then I just walked through all the steps of like what our goals are of like first breaking even, and then moving forward so that they can see that it is the right investment. But I wouldn't want someone to feel like they're wasting their money and they're stuck in a contract if that makes sense.
So, yeah. That's how I felt too. And like you said, I just tried to explain that to people and be completely transparent. So they feel like they can make the best dish decision for themselves and their business. But that's, I don't think I mentioned that, but that's what I really encourage my clients to do as well, to run campaigns to a lead magnet and really work on warming up their Pinterest tag.
And then ultimately, if they want to go to a product, then. Depending on how much we've warmed it up, then you could really retarget with that warmer audience. But yeah. And especially depending on the product price and stuff, it can, it definitely has its challenges. So what about the budget when you're thinking about investing on the two platforms?
Like where would you be the minimum daily ad spend on Pinterest? Would you say if you're just getting started?
Emilee: So. I believe it was in 2018 that Pinterest went public and there have been Pinterest advertising that has definitely not been around nearly as long as Facebook. And I would say that in the beginning it was, I don't want to say easy to have success with, uh, promoted pins when they release that.
I think that there. The dashboard, everything, it just felt so clunky. It was obvious that they were still really fine tuning things and they continued there. It seems like they are always making changes and it's helpful to have an ads rep and they will keep me informed on those things. And sometimes I'm even able to get beta stuff.
Released to my client accounts and whatnot, but it's definitely been a progression. And I think that more people for sure are advertising on Pinterest than even what I was seeing a year ago. And I've seen an increase in cost per lead cost per checkouts, and it's just gotten more expensive. But even at the beginning of.
Let's say 2020. So at the beginning of 2020, I would tell people that I was not comfortable running a campaign for really less than. $20 a day. I have done some with $10 a day, and if I do $10 a day, I do one campaign, one ad group, but I really prefer to split test and do two ad groups. So then I can really test parameters and see which one's performing better.
So that's why I say at least $20 a day, because then you could give $10 per. However Pinterest made another big change and they do for the consideration campaigns. The budgeting is actually now at campaign level, but this can still cause some problems because when they select an ad group, as the quote.
Your budget will be pushed out to the ad group. And sometimes it's selected so quickly. I almost wonder, like did that other ad group even have a chance, especially if I'm doing a keyword based audience against maybe an interest based audience. And so the interests I've noticed will kind of eat the budget.
So what I've done is I will have two separate campaigns in one ad group, and then it allows me. To see a more fair testing of those too. So that's one big change that was when they changed the budgeting. And so when I used to do that with the ad groups, you used to be able to give a specific budget to the ad groups.
Then I felt like I could really test them against each other, but if you're not spending at least. You know, $20 on a campaign. And especially if you have two ad groups, it's really just not giving Pinterest enough latitude. And I feel like you're just not going to see a lot in regards to your results.
So how do you feel about Facebook and what do you recommend and what do you do? Or do you require a certain budget for your client?
Jenzaia: So I, with anything that is a conversion campaign, so. Um, the traffic campaign is where you are getting them to click and go to the landing page. And then conversion is that they have to do something on the landing page. So like if it's a lead or a purchase or whatever, for those conversion campaigns, I say $25.
I've done the same thing, but I say $25. And then, um, Facebook actually still allows you to pick whether it's the campaign budget or the ad set, which is the same as the ad groups. So it still allows you to pick, and similarly, if I'm testing different audiences, then I will do the budgeting at the ad set level so that I have control.
And I can see, and because at the campaign level, sometimes the exact same thing happens that you explained that one of the audiences just eats the budget and then you're not really getting a fake. Test of everything. Um, so very similarly that if I'm doing a traffic campaign, I've seen success with lower amounts.
Like even as low as $10 a day. So I, in Facebook, it matters a little bit more about the type of campaign because they are looking to get a certain number of results per week. So something like 50 results per week. So with a traffic campaign where we're trying to get people like eyes on the landing page, you're going to get more of those for less.
So you can get the 50 landing page view. Quicker and will for less money than to get 10 purchases. Right. It costs more money to get that purchase. So that's why on Facebook, you need a bit of a bigger budget for those conversion campaigns.
Emilee: Yeah. That makes sense. With. Pinterest, like I mentioned, it still kind of drives me nuts that they changed the name from traffic to consideration.
I'm like, why? So they were different from Facebook, right? That's true. It is similar. So you're paying cost per click. And I think that one thing that kind of trips people up is that when they run a conversion campaign, you feel like you should be paying for your conversions, which you kind of are, but you're also not.
If you get zero conversions, Pinterest is still going to spend your $50 a day if you're putting $50 a day. And so what you're technically paying for is cost per a thousand impressions. And so you could be, like I said, you could be getting zero conversions and you're going to still be paying for that.
And that's interesting, you said that about the conversions within a week because Pinterest, when. I want to say this was at least solid two years ago. They quite literally would not allow you to run a conversion campaign unless you had 50 conversions within a 77 1 or a one week. Attribution window. So you have to have 50 conversions in that one week before you could even run a conversion campaign.
So with consideration campaigns, even though they're technically optimizing costs per click, they vary much so you can see great conversions from them, which is kind of confusing, but technically conversion campaigns are. They should be optimizing obviously for conversions. And so with the conversion campaigns though, I do definitely, like you said, I recommend having a higher budget.
I've had some clients who have like $25 a day, but I see better results with $50 a day, or I've even done a hundred dollars a day or $200 a day, which, you know, that's pretty steep, but. It depends on if you're B2B, B2C, there's so many things that can factor into that. And so, anyways, I definitely, like you said, there's, there's been a lot of crossover or similarities, but definitely having the higher budget, if you're going to run a conversion campaign.
Jenzaia: For sure. So that $20 a day could probably be doable or would be an okay. Starting. Place for consideration, but it's got to be more for conversion campaigns. Okay. So we've talked a little bit about this, but what are some of the main differences when you're actually creating the campaigns from between Facebook and Pinterest?
Emilee: Facebook. It is insane. How much more robust the targeting is, how you can target other people's audience. Like you could select, like, I want to target like Amy Porterfield's and you can get so detailed. And so when you are setting up. Your campaigns. Pinterest definitely does not have. And even if you are creating your own audience, you can, they call it act alike, but it's the same thing as a local, like you can create, you know, different audiences and have them saved and everything, but, uh, definitely there, no.
Nearly as many options, I guess. And also I don't always select this, which is kind of interesting because since Pinterest is a search engine, you might think that every campaign you're selecting keywords, but there's actually a place where you can put in keywords. And I don't always put in keywords.
Sometimes I will. An ad group or campaign, like I mentioned, because it's kind of hard to see which one's performing better, but I will have one that's focused on keywords and then the other that's focused on interests. So you can select what. You want your, or you can select the interests of your audience.
And so that is definitely with the keywords. That's a huge difference from Facebook, obviously. And it is interesting that you don't always have to use keywords. Sometimes I see them performing better, but more recently for one of my clients, I'm thinking of in particular, just her interests. Based campaign.
So we weren't selecting keywords at all and were really performing better. And I try to, when I am setting up those campaigns, all of my research has been done ahead of time. So it takes some time, but I do in depth, keyword research, uh, on the platform. And then another big difference when I'm setting them up. I am selecting pins and the creative.
Are definitely a lot different. I found that so interesting when I have, and I've done them for my own business, my Facebook ads. Um, but anyways, yeah, there you can. I feel like you can do a lot of different things with Facebook creatives and I don't. Playing around with, with my own business and say, I would, I, I was made more interesting risks than I would for, you know, if I was managing somebody else's, but with Pinterest, it's definitely with your pins.
It's not a good time to be ambiguous. People want to feel like they are getting exactly what they're clicking on and the pin. So I tried to make the pin. Appear extremely similar to either the landing page or the sales page, whatever the pin is going to be directed to. So there's not that confusion because that is something that has really bothered Pinterest users in the past when they either click through to something that's broken or they think it's not what they meant to click on.
So obviously that results in bounces and stuff. So, um, I definitely thought that was a big difference though, with, you know, having, it looks so similar where not that you, you don't want to lose the scent obviously on Facebook, but I feel like you had a little bit more room to do some different things. I would like to hear your opinion though. Like I said, you're the expert on that.
Jenzaia: I feel like I'm scrolling Pinterest as a user, because I do that all the time. You there's a lot of. There's titles on everything and there's, it's very like, it is what you said. Exactly. It's true. It's very clear. Or it should be if it's done well, like what I'm clicking here is what I'm getting there.
Whereas on Facebook, there's a bit of a trend recently to go with more. I'm going to say organic kind of posts where it's like just a picture, like a selfie of me in the forest. And I like living my best life. Click through and you have no idea really from the image, at least what you're getting, that there's a bit more emphasis on the, the caption or the headline to tell you what this is going to be about.
Um, and then even with like products, when I'll test creative, that my graphic designer has done, that has beautiful words on it. All of these other things, versus just like the image of the product, that image of the product sometimes does better. Even though again, that image really doesn't tell you what it is or what they're going to get.
I mean, they're seeing pictures of it, but it's not the same as this beautiful ad that has been created, like an actual ad that says, like this product. For this price, like by now kind of thing. So recently there has been that push and same with videos. Huge right now on Facebook talking to the camera, just super casual, not produced, just like talking kind of thing.
I do agree that there is a bit more, or it feels like, again, I'm only talking as a user on Pinterest, but does feel like there is more of a range of things you can do on Facebook versus the Pinterest.
Emilee: That's interesting that you said that about the videos because on Pinterest and I have tested and tried videos and I've spoken to other Pinterest strategists who also do promoted pins and they have that service that they offer. And I would say that I have not had a lot of success with video pins and promoting them. And it's interesting because when I have discovery calls or even when I have.
Sign the client on, and we're on the kickoff call and we're talking about the strategy and me creating the pins because I do all that. And, um, they'll want to test video and I just try to be extremely transparent. You know, we can test it, but I advise against it because I've seen one of two things, either a really great click-through rate, which obviously is important to distribution of the pin.
So it might have a really great click through rate, but then it doesn't convert or it just has a terrible click through rate. And I always create multiple pins. So what happens when I've created those multiple pins is Pinterest will just, while it's optimizing, it'll just put your money to a different pin that you've selected.
And so it basically just suppresses the distribution of that. And I also have. Tried a completely separate campaign just for those video pins. Like we talked about earlier to give them really a solid chance to see how they're going to perform him. I've just not been super encouraged with the results, but video content is actually in comparison to Facebook.
Really in the infancy stages. Now I say that people who are Pinterest users are like, oh, video probably has been around for awhile on Pinterest, but in comparison to Facebook. And I think that some people still get confused by the user experience. How, like you click on the video and pause the video and they're like, wait, where's the link for this.
And so obviously with promoted pins, it's a bit different, but I, I feel like it, the organic way that people use video content. Impacts there. I don't know if it's their willingness, but how they interact with their pins. And it's interesting because I really encourage creating video pins as part of your organic strategy, but it's with the paid that I've given it multiple chances and it usually lets me down.
Jenzaia: That's really interesting that it works or that you encourage it with organic, but that with pay because usually things that work well organically, like, well, if it's working organically, let's put money behind it. Awesome. Right. So I can totally see why people want to try it.
Emilee: And I've had one client where she, and we formatted it a bit differently, but we basically repurposed a reel and. It was converting so well on Facebook and she really wanted to test it on Pinterest. And we had like the text overlay, we made it accessible. Now we made it all very clear what people are clicking on. And it was very disappointing. So there you have, that's another thing that I don't think we chatted about. Maybe we'll get to it, but I'm going to bring it up now, because of the fact that Pinterest is a search engine, whereas Facebook is almost like an organic stumble upon.
And I think that that plays into the different objectives that you might have when you're running the app. Yes. So like you said, Pinterest is a search engine and that when I would have discovery calls, it's confusing that when you explain Facebook, people go there, I feel like to be social or to look at people's pictures, mindlessly scroll, like you said, stumble upon.
So you would think that the intent when it is there to buy something or to sign up for something, but yeah. Facebook ads or people do amazingly well with them and with Pinterest, it's just so, so different. There is that intent there. But I think that, like I said, The thought process and people who use Pinterest, we always say, look, I feel like Pinterest strategies always say like pinners are planners.
And so they might just not be ready yet to buy, which is as far as the objective. If they're warm-ish, maybe they're not quite ready to buy. They might be more willing to set. They might be more willing to sign up. So what I have found, especially with some of my clients that do have a higher ticket course or something that we don't ever retarget to a sales page, but we do use it to get people in their funnel.
And we see that down the funnel, people are converting on Pinterest. But they take longer to convert than on Facebook. But if you give it that time, uh, Pinterest, you can look at a really large attribution window and we can see, you know, like over the course of 30 days, if you're looking day to day or week to week on Pinterest with your results, you're going to probably lose your mind because it does take time and you're like, oh my gosh, this is looking terrible.
But then when you can step back and you look at the big picture in that. 30 days, especially if it is something that takes somebody more time to think about like a really expensive course, um, we've seen great results on it, but for that reason that. Really people being more top of the funnel with Pinterest and this perspective I'm coming from is really business to business.
So people that are educators or they have some type of course or something along those lines, I think that e-commerce is huge on Pinterest. And to be honest, I haven't done as much with e-commerce, but I know that there are physical product sellers that do really. Well on Pinterest. And one of my friends, she has, she actually worked with somebody who had, um, it was like a lighting business.
So they sold light fixtures and she saw insane results. So I think it also depends on what you're offering and what objective I would recommend. Is that kind of what you were thinking as far as. Okay, for sure. Like, I hope I wasn't just rambling, but that answer that also made me think about the back to the creative and like the images that you're picking, because potentially people are just scrolling through that.
Jenzaia: That might be part of the reason why those organic pictures work really well on Facebook because. I'm just mindlessly scrolling and I don't even necessarily realize it's an ad. I'm like, oh, that's interesting. Let me see. And then potentially like later realize it's an ad or whatever. Um, but that might be part of it because the organic picture just fits better into my scrolling habits.
Emilie: Yeah, that's a good point. It's. With people who like, if you're e-commerce, you can do, um, I believe it's catalog campaigns. And so you don't even need to create pins. It literally just pulls images from your catalog and you can connect your catalog, or, you know, you can connect your Shopify that integrates, and you can get the Pinterest app for your Shopify, but, um, it will pull those images.
And you would think that that would not. Do well, and it's interesting that I know a lot of e-commerce businesses do really well on Pinterest, but I think that's sometimes when, and it just depends on. What phase of planning you're in. And if there is something that you're like, that is the light I need for my kitchen, maybe somebody is ready to buy right away.
So I think it depends, like I said, with what I was explaining with business to business, and you might not have to buy that course right then, and you want to think about it. So it just depends. You really have to know. Your audience and kind of figure out where they're at in think about are like if you're B2C or B2B.
So, and I've seen, um, I don't always recommend it, but I've seen some great success with some of my TPT sellers and running promoted pins directly to a TPT product. But I, I usually recommend the objective, really us working on building their email list because I have had my clients say, you know, TPT sales are great, but I like foreign wide make the most money for my email list.
So I just think it's so important to really build that list. Instead of getting like an easy one off like a $5, $10, you know, $15 sale, but think about it, okay, if you got this person on your email list, You could make five, 10, $15 from them every month or every couple of months even. And it just has more value.
Jenzaia: It's the long-term sustainability in your business. It's the first, it's the first, um, campaign that I try to set up with all my clients. Let's get a list builder up and running and then, um, figure out where we're going to go from there. But I always try to get that list builder up first because of the exact same reason, you just said.
The cost per lead is cheaper. Generally speaking, when you're list-building on Facebook ads. And then there's like that long-term return on investment. Like down the road, we've nurtured them. We've built relationships. They start following you on Instagram and find your Facebook group. And, and, and, and, um, whereas if it's just like that one off sale on TPT or whatever, then there, yes, you made that money, but they're kind of lost to you.
Emilie: Long-term right. So there's definitely that same bed. Yeah. So why could it be beneficial to diversify your paid on. So it's talk about horror stories. That's what I'm thinking. That's why I started laughing. One of my clients, and this is what she came running to me. I had been doing organic, but she wanted to get some Pinterest campaigns up because her Facebook ads manager had been shut down and it was a really bizarre story.
And she had a hunch. She knew why. And like I said, it was very strange. It was around the time of the election. Last year, some friend had sent her a direct message that had to do with something political. And we don't need to get into that. I know. Can we just forget about that? But, um, and anyways, her ads manager got shut down and her hunch was, it had to do.
And I think because it might be. Been one of those things that was like, could have been like conspiracy theory. And I think that the meaning of the article that this person had sent her, and I don't even know if she opened it or whatever, but it wasn't spam. It was like a friend who sent it to her, but Facebook, they were putting it obviously as spam hence past elections and things happening.
So anyways, I think they were just like, seriously, Putting the crack down on. And she thought that her Facebook ads major was shut down because somebody had sent her something. And I have no idea if that's the case, but this needless to say was not the first time her Facebook ads manager. She had been put in Facebook ads, manager jail.
So the other time I forget why, but it had not always been clear. She would just like go to access it. She cut it. And so obviously that's super alarming when it is bringing you in some serious revenue and it, I think it makes people panic. I know I was listening to Rachel Peterson's podcast and why she really got started on TikTok was she was making tons of money from Facebook ads.
Like I forget how much she said a month. It was insane. And I mean, I'm sure she's invested a lot, but she was getting a really good return on our investment and, um, The same thing happened to her where her Facebook ad manager got shut down. And I can't remember what her reason was for, but, you know, everybody has these stories and so all the more reason to diversify.
So you're really not putting all of your eggs in one basket. So to put it because you don't want your business to stop, just because your Facebook ads stopped. And with Pinterest, you know, there's hiccups that can happen on Pinterest too. No platform is void of. Issues or mistakes or glitches? Uh, we had a campaign running for one of my clients in August and it had, I think it was like five X return on ad spend, which obviously, you know, very good.
And so naturally we're like, okay, let's inch up the budget. It's doing really well. We, and it was very modest and there's things that we don't have to get into now, but if you increase the budget by too much, it puts it back into the learning phase. And so anyways, we were, we made a very reasonable increase.
Um, for whatever reason it had been running for at least 45 days. When we increased it, it rejected a pin that had already been approved and running. So I was very frustrated because of course it was the best performing pin and the pin that Pinterest was giving all of the budget too. So when it rejected it, it was trying to put money to these other pins that hadn't been prioritized.
And honestly, That return on ad spend went back to like 1X. So we were breaking even. And I was like, oh, we ended up turning it off because we didn't want to lose money. I was like, are you kidding me? And I emailed my ads rep. I'm like, Hey, like I'm so upset. Like this pin was rejected and it had been running before.
I'm like, why did it reject? Just because I increased the budget and I had never had that happen before, but. It just goes to show you it's good to have that diversification and not just rely on one platform because things happen. And they're out of our control. I feel like recently I've been giving mixed messages to people about this diversification because you see people like Amy Porterfield who is everywhere and she's doing everything.
And so. It's very much like, remember she has a whole team and she started out on one platform doing one thing focused and I do a hundred percent agree with like start with one place. And then like when you're capable, when you have people helping you, when that first platform or second platform feels easy, Then add your next one on, but I also feel like more recently with the changes that have happened, like with iOS and all the algorithm changes that have been happening more and more, the message is you do need that diversification.
Jenzaia: I just want to be clear, like don't do everything all at the same time for the very first time. That's too much like figure one thing out at a time. And then as you can diversify so that you have that security as your business grows. I think is a message. I just a disclaimer, I want to put out there because it is a mixed message.
Emilee: I totally agree. And it's that diversification too. It doesn't have to just be, you know, with paid advertising either. I feel like, like you said, once you get comfortable in your you're in that place where, you know, you're ready to expand. But like I was saying with Rachel Peterson, she went too Tik TOK. And she had a ton of success and it was organic.
So I think that once you it's so important on any platform to be consistent, Show up and share high quality content. And like you said, that was such great advice that once you get comfortable or it feels easy to then expand, but I do think it's important to be marketing your business. And other platforms once you get to that point and that's, you know what I've done with my business and it was slow, it took me a while to just get my groove down, be consistent on Instagram before I moved on to the next platform.
Jenzaia: So I think that's great advice and I'm, I feel like, you know, it doesn't have to just be with paid advertising, but organically. So last question for you. What about tracking?
Emilee: Yes. So with Pinterest, obviously we have the Pinterest tag and I install it when I set up the campaigns. And that's one thing that I do.
That's the technical piece. That's nice for my clients as I installed the Pinterest tag and then event codes and all that good stuff on their pages and their thank you pages. Pinterest, as far as TBT, I feel like they don't get along as well because you, you just, you can't install, obviously the Pinterest tag and we don't have that ability.
So we're really relying on codes, but there's caveats with that as well with the tracking being broken. And then you can't accurately report, which is kind of hard. So then what you're doing is something that's not really. A clear science where you're looking at maybe from month to month. Okay. I didn't do promoted pins in June, but I did in July.
And you're trying to compare how much better that product did, or maybe you're looking at July this year in comparison to July the last year. But the thing that's challenging is there's so many variables such as how much your business has grown. The seasonality more people might be buying in July than they are in June because they're getting closer to back to school.
And so that's one thing that it makes me cringe to not, and there's always going to be, you know, variances and numbers and reporting, uh, and what you might be seeing in. Maybe your email service provider can vary from what Pinterest says, but the best chance for accuracy is to be able to install your Pinterest tag and have your event codes and all of that stuff.
So then you're going back to your either. Building your email list and you have that where you can install on your, you know, your own site and everything, um, or you have to be okay with knowing that there's going to be that variable there where it's not completely accurate. So I do fully, I try to fully disclose that and explain that to my clients.
And sometimes they're totally fine with it. And then sometimes they're like, okay, let's go with email list building. And then some. Also, they have their own shop store and we can promote pins there, but then you're running into, I do think that people would probably prefer to buy from TPT because you know, they know where their purchases are and they like to leave reviews and you get points or whatever.
There's just the like and trust factor with TPT. And not that those people don't trust your store, but it is, it is a little bit different. So that's something else that I try to explain. So now I know lucky Facebook, you can, um, is it just add to cart though that you can track with Facebook pixel? I've never done it for, um, I've never done that with TBT, for Facebook and any of my clients or anything.
So, you can track, page views, add to cart and wishlist. But it's still the tracking isn't great. Really breaks a lot. Like it, it doesn't accurately report and there's no ability to back it up, like to dump across, check it because the TPT dashboard, as you know, is just all the traffic. So when I run list-building campaigns, I try to get my clients to do two separate things.
Like landing pages basically, so that we can tag people coming in from Facebook ads. And that there's like a double track, like a checkpoint kind of thing. So if I'm looking at the Facebook only landing page and there's been 20 opt-ins, and I know that there's been 20 opt-ins from Facebook. 'cause that's the only traffic that's going there.
My client is sending their organic traffic to the other landing page and knowing that that comes in organically. So that gives us a way to double-check Facebook's tracking, which you obviously can't do on TPT, because there's no way to like, have a second listing that can't be seen. Right. If that makes sense.
Jenzaia: And then, like you said, UTM codes. Or I've been told, like, if you use the app on certain phones to click through, like, it breaks that way. So those are like all kinds of things that UTM codes aren't super reliable themselves. And yeah. So there's, it's that balancing game of trying to figure out exactly what you said.
Like we're comparing it to like the week before and last year and the month before and all of those different pieces and seeing like, are we noticing a difference? How much of a difference, is it a significant enough difference? Like I have one client, she was getting zero to two sales a day. We started running the ads and she's now getting like two to four sales a day.
So we're like, okay, this looks like it is, but who knows for, for actual reality, like we don't know. It appears. But yeah, it, that is, it is hard. I know. That's why I feel like if you compare month to month, it's like, well, is it because there are certain reasons it performed better this month?
Or is it because it's really the ad? So it is challenging. And so I just try to be. Transparent and explain those and, you know, say if you are wanting to test this and try to track it in that way, you know, and just fully explain that, but this is awesome, do you have a definitive answer for people? Is there a definitive answer?
Emilie: If Pinterest or Facebook is better. Oh gosh. I don't know. I feel like, gosh, I think about some of them, if it was something that I had done in the past, run some Facebook ads, they will say some of them. I felt like one, I did promoted pins and Facebook ads. And I am a Pinterest girl, obviously, and I will say she got a way lower cost per lead on Facebook and she was getting on Pinterest.
And so just from like email list building, she was like, oh, let's go ahead and turn Pinterest off. But hi, I know some of my clients are all about Pinterest, so I think that it can. Sometimes you just have to, if you have the budget and you're willing to try or at least test both, that could be a good option, but I don't know.
I think it's just, there's a lot of different things that factor in. So I don't know if I have a definitive answer. Do you feel like you have a definitive answer after this.
I feel like you have to take everything that we talked about into consideration as far as budget and time. And that's what I tried to kind of walk my clients through and then, you know, let them make what they feel like is the best decision. And maybe they do, they do at some point test both, but I feel like.
And this isn't saying that this is the right answer or that it's better to do it this way, but I feel like TPT sellers often lean towards Pinterest first and then course creators. There's a bit more of a split. Like if you're, if you're running ads for a course, then there's a bit more of a split between Pinterest and Facebook.
Maybe leaning a little bit towards Facebook, but I definitely think TPT authors lean towards Pinterest first. And I think that that's an audience preference and. What has just been done? And so people see and hear about other people who have done it and they go, okay, well, that's what I'm going to do to follow the leader kind of thing.
But I don't necessarily think that that means that those are the only choices that you can make just because everyone's leaning in one direction. So that's kind of my perception of the situation. But from the statistics perspective and like what is happening? We've clearly mentioned multiple times that like, it's the same, it's the same, it's the same.
Right. So that's true with giving it time and all the different pieces and like looking at the cost per lead and like even budget, like how much you're going to spend. They're very comparable. So, and the different types of campaigns you can run. So I think that figuring out which one feels right for you and your business.
W leaning into it, testing it. And then if you have the ability. Then testing the other one as well, is your answer. So no answer.
Jenzaia: Hope everybody's okay with that. You're going to have to meet. So thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I really enjoyed this conversation. I know I had so much fun. Thank you so much again for having me. And it's been super fun chatting and you have a freebie for listeners. And so what is your freebie and then also, where can they find you?
Emilie: Yeah, so my freebie is it's basically a Pinterest training, but it's my three-step system for automated TPT sales on Pinterest. It's a PDF download, so you can grab that. And then people can find me on my website. It's Emileevales.com and I'm very active on Instagram. So my handle over there is, @emilee.vales
Jenzaia: So this, and the freebie, your website and Instagram will all be linked in the show notes for people to find. So thank you so much again for coming on.
Emiliee: Yes. Thank you so much for having me. It was super fun.
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